Methanol Foam Brush Soap

[Kidwash]

For those who have had experience using Methanol Foam Brush solution during the winter months please provide me your thoughts/recommendations:

Understand that the biggest advantage is gas & water savings as a result of shutting down the trickle?

Is the quality better or worse?
What problems have you or your customers had with it?
Does it really work and at what temps? Does it freeze?
Which brand do you recommend?
Is more foam brush solution used than normal?
Would you use it again and why?

Thanks
Kidwash

[PaulLovesJamie]

Biggest advantage to me is that the brush heads dont freeze in the bays.
Quality is the same.

I rigged my hydrominder with 3 tips, and as the temp drops outside I increase the concentration. I'm not anal about it though, if the temp varies I just use the stronger concentration. But if I know its going to stay over 20 for a few days, I switch over to a weaker concentration.

Yes I'll use it again. I'm not far from kleen rite, so I'll be driving out there in a few weeks to buy a couple 55 gal drums of their brand. Normally 2 drums gets me thru a winter, maybe 3.

[Sequoia]

Two winters ago, I tried switching to a "winter formula" soap made by a major provider. It was a methanol-based solution.

I wasn't happy with the results. The viscosity of the "winter formula" was so different from my normal soap that I had lots of trouble getting everything recalibrated to flow correctly.

I've since learned to buy straight methanol from a chemical supply house, and add it to my regular soap. That way, I don't have to change buckets, soap products, etc. And I can control how much methanol I add compared to the amount of soap. Doing this made it much easier on me when migrating from Fall to Winter.

I found that 1 gal of methanol mixed in 5 gals of soap is about right for me, but I'm not in a very harsh winter climate. Cold climates would probably need more.

[Earl Weiss]

I am in Chicago and use the Kleen Rite Methanol soap. You use more than with the regular soap since you need to increase the concentration when it gets colder.

I am some what of a newbie and didn't even know the stuff existed my first winter. The next winter was much better.

So, do I turn the weep off to the foam brush when I use this stuff?

[soapy]

I make my own methenol soap using the following method. I buy 1 55 gallon drum of methenol and drain 10 gallons of methenol out of the barrel. I then add between 5 to 10 gallons of foam brush soap concentrate to the 55 gallon drum. I then use this barrel to draw from through a hydrominder. A 10% solution of methenol mixed with water is good for a freeze point of 25 degrees, a 20% solution is good for 10 degrees and a 30% is good to 0 degrees. Usually with methenol soap the foam will not be as thick but still works fine. Since it tends to get very cold here most of the time I run my hydrominder with no tip installed and that gives me about a 10 degree rating. Most people don't wash with the foamy brush when it gets any colder than that.

[Reds]

I use Warsaw winter foam. I use a grey hydrominder tip for winter foam so it uses a lot more than the "summer foam". It foams nice and the customers like it. Customers don't use the foam brush as much during the winter, but it does get used often enough to justify using the winter foam. I have had it working in temps down to 10 below zero with a hard wind that almost always blows thru my bays. My biggest problem has been not switching to winter foam early enough and the "summer foam" freezing up in the hoses & boom. I am switching to winter foam this week and will stay with it until April.

[Earl Weiss]

OK, Anyone.

Do you not ned to weep when using Methanol Soap in the Foam Brush?

[I.B. Washincars]

OK, Anyone.

Do you not ned to weep when using Methanol Soap in the Foam Brush?

I've never heard of anyone doing both, it's an either/or thing. BTW, I use the methanol soap.

[DavidM]

With menthanol you do not need to weep your foam brush. One word of caution though, be sure to purge the summer formula out of the lines before freezing temperatures arrive.

Systems are available that automatically switch back and forth between formulas based on temperature and purge the lines as needed. The advantage is that when it warms up, you automatically switch to summer solution which is cheaper to use.

David

[Ben Smith]

OK, Anyone.

Do you not ned to weep when using Methanol Soap in the Foam Brush?

You DO NOT want to weep if you are using Methanol Soap. It will defeat the purpose of having it.

I don't see the advantage of weep the foam brush anyways. When the water freezes it will usually start on the brushes. Then customers are scrubbing their cars with iced up brushes. Not to mention the damage it does to your brushes.

[Weather Or Not]

I am in Chicago and use the Kleen Rite Methanol soap. You use more than with the regular soap since you need to increase the concentration when it gets colder.

I am some what of a newbie and didn't even know the stuff existed my first winter. The next winter was much better.

So, do I turn the weep off to the foam brush when I use this stuff?

I am self serve wash owner with 3/1 , as of 2 years yesterday , the existing wash was ran for 13 years by the original owner which is now our Arcadian Chemical rep, the system he perfected is very simple, there are (2) 15 gallon containers of foam brush soap (triton spearmint) 1 is green colored and 1 is blue colored, the green is for summer and blue is for winter, when you drive up to the wash you can tell by the color on the ground which you are on, it switches automatically when the temp drops to the setting you have set on t-stat, the mixing tank is 2 sided with 2 hydro-minders, the summer is tirtrated with the normal tip and water for the soap , the winter has 2 tips 1 for soap and 1 for methanol the menthanol minder is either beige /black or no tip depending on the prevailing temp and is only switched 6-8 times during the winter because in utah the lows stay consitent for long periods of time, the mix in my opinion is just as good as the summer mix because the actual liquid volume being mixed is similiar to summer rates just split between methanol and water , in the 2 full winters we have gone through, we have purchased only (2)55 gallon drums of methanol (i forget the price ,approx 3.15 a gallon i believe) we transfer the 55 into 15 gallon drums and going into our 3rd winter we have approx 30 gallons left over from last year. when the temp drops there is a signal to a timer that is set at a little over 3 minutes which switches over to the blue winter mix and pushes foam mix through the lines and illuminates a red light on the box above(light and color of foam let you know when you are on winter) have had no problems with this system and easy to run. set it and forget it(when temp rises,it goes back to summer and uses the winter mix in the lines until summer gets to brushes) it does leave a big pile of foam in bays when it purges to winter but the little bit of waste is worth avoiding a freeze up.

[JMMUSTANG]

I'm having problems with the chemical supply company about the type of methanol. I told them it was for my bubble brushes so they wouldn't freeze. They say they have over 465 different methanol blends.
Does anybody know what type/kind of methanol to ask for?
Thanks, Tim.

[soapy]

My methenol is labeled as Racing fuel. I get it from the local gas distributor.

[Jim Caudill]

Same here, find out where your local midget racers get their alcohol. My supplier has pumps just like at the gas station; pull up fill up your tanks, go inside and pay. I used to get mine from a chemical supplier in 55 gal metal drums. Too much trouble. I now use 2 of the 15gal plastic drums and fill up myself.

[JMMUSTANG]

How flammable is it?

[PaulLovesJamie]

Yes, methanol burns! (someone smarter than me can answer your specific question, "how flammable."
Somebody sells little plastic balls (various sizes) to float on top of chemicals, I cant recall if the purpose is to insulate or to stop evaporation. I simply cut a piece of styrofoam insulation to the size of my mixing tanks, and float it on top. It helps insulate, and it stops the methanol from evaporating off. So I think I have less chance of a fire (I think the chances are low anyway), plus the methanol stays in the product longer.

Btw, I read somewhere that you need to mix/stir the meth soap solutions periodically.

[Kidwash]

Can you provide the mixing ratio's or direct me to were I can find them?

[JMMUSTANG]

This might be a dumb question but wouldn't windshield solution work the same way?
Maybe mixing 40-45 gallons windshield solution to 5 gallons bubble brush soap.

[MEP001]

Windshield washer solution works, but you need a lot of it. I buy the cheap -20? stuff from WalMart at $1.29 a gallon, which is only about 10% ethyl alcohol. We have very mild winters, so only about twice a year I need it. If there's a threat of a freeze I mix 5 gallons into the tank along with enough soap to make it foam, then run all the bays long enough to clear the lines. It only has to last overnight, so that occasional cost isn't a big deal. If I had to run it like that for three months, we'd go broke.

[JMMUSTANG]

MEP001 that's what I've been doing for a couple of years too.
But I was wondering if mixing 40-50 gals. of windshield fluid to 5 gals. soap would work if the temperature dropped to 10-20 degrees for a longer length of time.
Has anybody tried it for longer periods of time with the lower temperatures?
If so did it work or was there problems?

[JMMUSTANG]

Another worry I have with methanol is if it is flammable and something should happen to ignite it would it be covered under insurance?

[Mel(NC)]

JMMustang, all I use is the -20 degree windshield washer fluid from wally world. I mix it in a 55 gallon drum using the ratio from the chart on this website http://www.chem-pro.com/freeze.html. We don't get below 10 degrees so this is my target. I have my system set up to switch from methanol to regular soap when the temp gets above freezing. I use about 60 gallons of windshield washer fluid over the winter. I increased the amount of soap by 50% because of one of the posting I read here a couple of years ago that said methanol reduces the effectiveness of the soap. I have been doing this for a couple of years with no problems.

According to the chart, normal windshield washer fluid is 33% methanol. I have not priced it, but I can't imagine pure methanol would be any cheaper. Also, I don't have the potential hazard of storing 100% methanol.

[MEP001]

JMMUSTANG, it seems like it should work, but you might want to do some price comparisons. $1.29 per gallon of something that's only 33% methanol vs. $3 per gallon of methanol, and you're already a bit ahead. You could premix a solution in a 55 so you're never storing pure methanol.

[Wally]

Sequoia, when you put the gallon of methonal in five gallons of soap which tip do you use?

[bneckrock]

I received the following email from someone who's trying to get my winter foaming brush business:

Thanks for taking my call today. As I indicated on the phone, winter foaming brush pricing is continuing to rise. Our current price is $212.80 for 55 gallon drum of 95% methanol. Some of the competitors are only 50% meth. Make sure you know what you are getting.

You can dilute ours around 2 to 1 and it is good to -10?F or better. 8 to 1 dilution gets you to around 20.

Can I get any comments?

[soapy]

Here are the figures I was given years ago on dilutions. A 10% final mixture is good to 25, a 20% good to 10, a 30% is good to 0 and a 40% is good to -10. I mix my methenol up by taking 5 to 10 gallons of methenol out of the barrel and adding 5 gallons of foamy brush concentrate. I go through a hydrominder with no tip in the coldest part of the winter and have never had frozen brushes. In early winter and late winter when temps are not as cold I add a tip to cut the mixture to about 10%.

[Sequoia]

Depending on temperature, I go up 1 or 2 tip sizes in winter after adding the methanol to the soap. This year, I didn't bother with 1 tip size and just bumped it up 2.

[Jim Caudill]

Just picked up 30gal of methanol this afternoon. Pumping it into my own plastic drum, came to $89.46 out the door. With my winter foam brush additive, this means I'm paying about $190 for a 55gal of solution. Note that this means I'm supplying the drum, picking up my additive and methanol, and mixing it myself. If someone offered to do all this for me for an additional $22, I think I'd take them up on it.

[JMMUSTANG]

Just added 17 gals. of -25 windshield washer fluid and 2 gals. of b.b. soap to a 20 gal. container.
Using no tip in the hydrominder.
I put in 2 gals. in the main tanks.
Praying it doesn't freeze tonight(low 30's) or tomorrow night (20's).

[Waxman]

Soapy

the only place i know of for chemical supply is my cw soap distributor.

where do i start looking?

how much should i pay for methanol?

thanks!

[Randy]

Dave,
The first place I?d start looking would be with a local oil supplier like Peterborugh Oil Co., Inc. 665 N Main St Leominster MA 01453 1-800-366-7624.

According to one of my soap suppliers Methanol has taken a big jump in price.

[Waxman]

thanks. looking into it.

[soapy]

I paid $179 for 55 gallon drums last week. There is a $35 drum deposit also but I get that back at the end of winter when I turn them back in. I get mine from a petroleum distributor. Usually a gas wholesaler has it.

[Buzzie8]

I'm assuming 4 gallons of Methanol and one of concentrate would do the same thing if mixing into a 5 gallon bucket. Also, I'm assuming that you still mix this with water in your pump stations with a hydrominder, correct?

[dharschman]

I am north of Dayton Ohio and would like to know where it is you fill your drums with methanol if you would be kind enough to give out that information .


Thanks
Dale










Same here, find out where your local midget racers get their alcohol. My supplier has pumps just like at the gas station; pull up fill up your tanks, go inside and pay. I used to get mine from a chemical supplier in 55 gal metal drums. Too much trouble. I now use 2 of the 15gal plastic drums and fill up myself.

[Jim Caudill]

To fill your own containers, you can go to Duncan Oil @ 849 Factory Rd. Beavercreek, OH 45434 (937) 426-5945. They are about 1/4mile North of US 35. They sell a lot of methanol to the racers at Kil-Kare. One of their employees has a car wash, so they are very familiar with what we do.

To get it by the drum, try Gem City Chemicals Inc. @ 1287 Air City Ave Dayton, OH 45404. Very near the Stanley Ave exit off I-75.

I get my foaming brush concentrate from JBS in Lebanon.

[washnvac]

What is Metanol going to be this Winter? I think it was $355 per drum from KR last year. Does anyone have an air blow down system? It seems to me you could use the Weepmizer to send air through the lines at 34 F instead of the Methanol purge. Then use another time delay relay to send air every 30 minutes or so to keep any residual moisture from freezing. Then on each bay put a time delay relay on the air manifold so that at the end of foam brush use, the air only runs for 60 seconds or however long is needed to clear the line. I can buy a whole mess of relays for the cost of one drum of Methanol. It will probably be $400 this year. I think I will try my busiest location this year where I use 4-5 drums. Thoughts?

[Jim Caudill]

On May 22, 2008 it was $2.67/gallon. Why do you think it will go to $8/gallon? If this were true, we could all make some real money by buying up Methanol now and selling it this winter. Hmmm, sounds like speculation, doesn't it?

[Buzzie8]

Here is where you can get it in the Western PA area:

http://www.ppclubricants.com/

[washnvac]

I was basing price on the finished product from KR last year at $355 +/-. I do not have a supplier (that I know of) for the Methanol only in my area. I am going to check around at some petro dealers, though as previous posts suggested. If I can get it for about $3 per gallon, that is worth it. I am in lower Delaware, if you know of anyone that supplies in this area. Although, the air blow down seems like a decent idea, too.

[Randy]

Methanol is made from natural gas and I?ve been hearing that natural gas is supposed to take a big hike this fall upwards of 15-20%. This hike is also going affect electric rates also.

[rph9168]

Methanol is made from natural gas and I?ve been hearing that natural gas is supposed to take a big hike this fall upwards of 15-20%. This hike is also going affect electric rates also.

I just read that natural gas is expected to go down because the market is tied to the price of oil which appears to be sliding.

[Bubbles Galore]

Maybe in the short term, but gas will trend back up over time. Just my .02

Has anyone ever thought of using windshield washer fluid to keep the lines from freezing? Any ideas on how to do it?

[cantbreak80]

Has anyone ever thought of using windshield washer fluid to keep the lines from freezing? Any ideas on how to do it?


For about 5 years, my FB winterizer works with standard foam soap and windshield washer fluid.

The system uses an Idec Smartrelay, programmed to wait for the FB input from each individual bay.
IF? the temp output #2 from the Weepmizer is ON,
AND? the FB input is turned ON, the program waits for the FB input to go OFF.
Once the FB input goes OFF, the Smartrelay then energizes the ?anti-freeze" solenoid for that bay. The Smartrelay?s output is timed to allow the washer fluid to be pumped to the brush?anywhere from 8 seconds for the closest bay to 30 seconds for the far bays.

The program also energizes ALL of the Smartrelay?s outputs when the temperature drops to the setpoint of the Weepmizer for more than 5 minutes. This reduces consumption should the temperature hover at the setpoint. I believe I have the Weepmizer?s output #2 setpoint programmed to 35 degrees. The Weepmizer?s output #2 also turns on my trough blower and warm water circulator keeping the trough nice and toasty.

The system required a NC solenoid, a tee fitting, some ?? poly tubing and a check valve for each bay, plus a Flojet pump and pressure regulator set to 30psi. I draw the washer fluid from a 15 gallon drum. I already had the Weepmizer. The washer fluid injects into the FB liquid lines just before the tubes leave the equipment room.

I?ve had only 2 or 3 brushes freeze in the 5 years the system has been in operation. I use an average of 30 gallons of washer fluid per season?from Sam?s Club?about $1/gal.

It works great?much better than the original air-blow-out system or the water weep system (which resulted in very large icicles hanging from the brushes). And, I get great foam year round using the same foam brush juice and ratio.

[thoffmanjr]

We are doing the same thing described above with one more step. After the customer finishes brushing the PLC waits 30 seconds then starts a 10 second air only blow down that repeats every minute for 5 minutes to blow out the liquid. After that there is just a 3 second squirt of windshield washer fluid. Our through is also heated.

[MEP001]

We have very mild winters, but it may freeze overnight 2 or 3 times a year. The evening before a freeze is forecast I'll pour a few gallons of -20? windshield washer fluid in the tank and add some blue tri-foam as an indicator and run each bay until the lines are cleared of the freezable stuff. I've worked out a simple changeover system if we ever start having harsher winters like we did in the 80's, but for now the manual method is more than sufficient.

[Bubbles Galore]

.............

[washregal]

How did you rig your hydro minder with the three tips? Has it helped when doing a changeover for temperature change...anyway to automate this tip change process?

[Earl Weiss]

I received the following email from someone who's trying to get my winter foaming brush business:



Can I get any comments?

Kleen Ritel is $38.00 fo 5 gallons, but I don't think it needs to be diluted as much. Could not find the chart.