How are your sewer rates calculated?

[Baywash]

I need some help! I just returned from the city council meeting for my town in which I have two car washes. They are proposing an across the board 30% sewer rate increase which would effect my bottom line dramatically. I stood up and suggested that this type of increase could not be entirely fair to industry in our fair city. I suggested that rather than implimenting flat rate increase, that it might be a better idea to use a sliding scale or business rate in order not to hender industrial growth. In my case, even though I use a lot of water, gallon for gallan, my water is much cleaner than the average household. Not to mention that all my solids are collected in my pits and the fact that I am pumping cleaner water into the sewer system actually helps the purification process.

My request to my fellow car wash operators is this.....what are different examples of how various townships calculate sewer bill. I have 30 days to formulate a proposal to my council for their consideration. I do not feel I should pay the same rate (meaning lower) as the average household which has the higher BOD count in their waste water. If you don't have any particular formular, I would be interested in any ideas, suggestions, brainstorms, etc.

Thank you,

Mike

[PaulLovesJamie]

Mine are straightforward: gallons of water used times sewer rate. I actually pay more for sewer than I do for the water. I'm not happy about it, but they dont care.

[Dean Taylor]

Almost all sewer fees are calculated from the actual amount of water used. This is unfair to car washes because there are water losses at a car wash that do not go to sewer.

The same holds true with residential too. If you irrigate your lawn or fill a swimming pool, you haven't put that water to sewer, but you still have to pay for sewer.

They do it this way because it's quick and easy and they only have to read one meter to get both fees. Most municipalities won't even discuss a separate meter for sewer.

The best measure you can take to combat these increasing fees is to recycle your water. You can expect up to 70% savings in water and sewer rates if you employ a good reclaim system. It can also make you immune to drought closures like the ones going on in the Atlanta area right now. How would you like to hear "No reclaim, sorry, you're closed!" ? It's happening as I type.....

For those that think recycling water isn't for you, you might want to wake up and smell the coffee. Recycling water is fast becoming a necessity to even be in the car wash business, both economically and through legislation.

[PaulLovesJamie]

For those that think recycling water isn't for you, you might want to wake up and smell the coffee. Recycling water is fast becoming a necessity to even be in the car wash business, both economically and through legislation.

Dean, good info, most of it is correct ...
But I have to say it - I doubt that anybody disagrees that water recycling is a good idea. Here's my problem with recycling: it will cause me to lose $. Probably a lot. I'd bet that the vast majority of small businesses (including self service car washes) are in that boat.

Rather than insult our intelligence with "wake up and smell the coffee," how about giving us an honest cradle-to-grave business case indicating that it is a wise business decision? Post it up on your website. And please let me know when its there, because the honest truth is that I personally would LOVE to put in water recycling at my sscw. Prove that it will make my sscw more profitable within a reasonable time period and I'll probably buy one. Every large company I work at makes business decisions based on a spreadsheet, not words. Show me the numbers!

Sorry, I dont want to hijack this thread, I just couldnt let that one go.

Mike, this topic has been discussed quite a bit in the past - check the old forum archives, theres quite a bit of info out there. Also contact Jarret at the SSCWN for a reprint of his articles on this topic. A few of us (not me) have been able too get sewer rates reduced, but unfortunately I'm not optimistic for your chances.

Also, be sure to raise your prices, and be sure to advertise very clearly why.

[Baywash]

Paul,

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. I actually think I have a shot at getting special use rates as I am in pretty good with the city. I was hoping someone had similar situation were a township has a formula for special use operations. I will look a little harder for the mentioned threads. I have already recently raised my prices across the board at my two locations and have certianly not regretted it.

The comments on water reclaim was a little harsh. I agree with you Paul that it could posibly not be for all situations. Don't think for one minute that I did not run the numbers when considering water reclemation. For the most recent location I built, the numbers just did not ad up. If the truth be known, my water/sewer rates are very resonable and it would have been a money loosing proposition to install water reclaim. Even with the 30% sewer rate increase I am facing, the numbers still would not support water reclaim (unless something has changed in the last year or so). The time will come when I will do it if for no other reason other than it is a good thing to do. The last thing I need is for someone to tell me to wake up because I don't know what I'm doing. A better approach would be to refer me to a website that could explain to me how installing water reclaim system can make/save me money (catastrophic drought asside).

I would like to say that I have read the posts and magazine articles about the Atlanta situation. My sympathy goes out to those owners facing finacial difficulties and kudos to the guys already recycling their water.

Mike

[Dean Taylor]

Hi Guys,

I'm sorry if my post seemed a little abrasive, I certainly didn't intended it to be.

You guys are absolutely correct is saying every wash doesn't need a reclaim system, especially SS bays. There are many areas where water and sewer rates would never justify recycling water. When prospects call me, one of the first things we discuss is their water and sewer rates. If it can't be financially justified with a reasonable ROI, I let them know right up front.

The point I was trying to convey is, with droughts and the push for "Green Buildings", you will see that legislation is driving in the industry in this direction. Not only with car washes but with many, many other businesses as well.

I have quite a few clients that have invested in reclaim systems simply because they felt it was their moral obligation to recycle water. Many others have to have reclaim systems to get permitting, as recycling is already mandated in many areas.

Similar to no smoking laws, it is a gradual process that, in time, will end up affecting car washes across the board.

I hope this doesn't come across as too bold, I feel it's the truth.

[PaulLovesJamie]

Ahhh, sorry guys, I really didnt mean to be harsh either, but yeah, re-reading my post maybe I was. Sorry. Believe it or not, I was actually trying to be constructive, I did not intend to offend. It's bow season, I'm probably just not getting enough sleep.

[Dean Taylor]

No problem Paul, good debate is actually quite healthy. Sometimes online, things are read in a different context than they are typed.

To answer your question, typically a reclaim system can be justified when water and sewer bills exceed $ 1,000.00 a month. 70% reduction of water and sewer is typical, resulting in a $700.00 a month savings.

This is interesting:

A fellow called me yesterday from a severe drought area. He is in process and has actually broken ground on a 4 bay SS. He wasn't going to have a reclaim system because he couldn't justify it in savings. His lender shut down his project (the money to fund it) until he could prove he was installing a reclaim system to prevent drought closures.

Actually this was pretty clever thinking of the lender. Why would they lend money to a project that can't even open the doors? The lender has agreed to fund the reclaim system too. The project is back on track today.

[Chiefs]

Recycling water at the conveyor and In-bay automatic is infinitley easier and the payback far greater than it is for the self-serve operator. At the self-serve people are not just merely washing their vehicles. The are dumping their RV toilets, cleaning horse trailers and changing their oil. This is also a red-herring for the self-serve operator as the amount of fresh water used to wash and rinse at a self-serve wash is far less than the amount of fresh water used per car by a tunnel or in-bay even if they do recycle 70-80% of their water already!

A self-serve wash on fresh water is the best way to conserve water.

[Baywash]

It is apparent that we would rather talk about conserving water rather than figuring out how to keep my rates low. OK, I'll go with the flow (pun intended). After all, I see this as a means to a long term end to high water bills and even though my neighborhood is not all that "green", I could start educating my customers on how environmentally friendly my wash is. After being in operation for 20 months now, my water bill is typically over $1000 per month. I have four HB and two IBA. One unit is frinction using around 50 gals. per wash and the other uses 100 gal per wash. I pay for around 200k-300k of water/sewer monthly. Send me the numbers, web sites, etc....and I will revisit the reclaim issue. Feel free to contact me on private post is that is possible here.;)

[Baywash]

One more quick note....I would like to hear from anyone who has installed water reclaim after the initial construction of the wash. Pros vs. Cons, cost savings, regrets, customer reaction, ROI, etc.

Also, this origial question about sewer calculations is still the main topic and I am still interested in any feedback.

thanks

[Greg Pack]

How much will the supposed 30% increase in sewer charges cost you? No more than $200/month is my guess. be sure and factor in the cost of the unit, the electricity used by the reclaim unit, the (slight) increased wear on the pumps the possible need to change your cleaning chemistry to more expensive reclaim-friendly products and more wall/ equipment cleaning in your cost evaluation. In my area, for every reclaim that is running at an operator site, there are two turned off.

Seriosuly, I can get you a heck of a deal on a "slightly used" system with only a couple hundred hours on it if you interested in one.

[rph9168]

In the Atlanta area you cannot remain open unless you have a reclaim system so I think that may be another reason to have one. It may keep you open in a drought or under stricter government regulations.

[Baywash]

Greg,

I believe what you say about having the units istalled, but not using them. I am going to have another look at the install and ROI. My guess would be that a used system would be the way for me to go. I like plan B's and options. I bet after running the system, I would be one of those that installs by-pass valves around the unit. We have in the past been through periods when our water table gets low, but never to the point of manditory water conservation.

By-the-way, you are correct in your increase of cost guesstimate for my sewer rates.

thanks

[MEP001]

It is apparent that we would rather talk about conserving water rather than figuring out how to keep my rates low.
The two go hand in hand, unless you're willing to go and fight to have them lower your rates. Since your sewer rates are directly related to water consumption, conserving water is your only other option.

[Baywash]

The two go hand in hand, unless you're willing to go and fight to have them lower your rates. Since your sewer rates are directly related to water consumption, conserving water is your only other option.

Talking to the city administrators about special use sewer rate was the original topic of this tread. My city is in the process of adjusting the rate, and have ask for public input. My original question was just that, "how do I fight for lower rates," and has anyone on this forum done so?

Now we seem to be talking about water reclaim....which is fine by me as I am now thinking about it.

Thanks

[Earl Weiss]

Some cities sewer rates have nothing to do with sewer useage although you may need to press them to admit it. If your city indeed has special rates to account for use that is not discharged consider yourself lucky.

If the sewer rate is really just a revenue raising device with a misleading name because it is really a water useage tax instead of a sewer useage fee, then stop wasting your time and energy trying to convince them you should get a special rate.

Have they given special rates to any other users?

[pitzerwm]

If there is a possibility of a reduced rate on actual use. Get a sewer meter and show them the difference between water in vs water out. Done deal.

[AdamA]

My rates are calculated water x rate = bill...

However, they use a winter uses multiplier where the sewer rates are based on your usage for three winter months. Meant to not charge you sewer for irrigation water. Since winters are slower for me I come out ahead. Might be worth suggesting, especially if your winters are slower and you have significant irrigation usage.

[washnvac]

One of my municipalities let me put in a sewer meter, so I only pay what goes to the sewer. It is the ultrasonic kind which reads throught the pipe--nothing to get caught in an impeller. Caution though, be sure your guttering is clearly directed away from your building and drains. As well, I corked the outside manhole covers to the settling tanks. My sewer usage is 10-12% less than incoming water gallonage.

[ted mcmeekin]

Four comments:

I was sucessful in getting a 25 % decrease in rate based on indusry info I thought (I later found out that friend of the Mayor had already cut that deal several years earlier and they had no choice but to reduce ours or her friend's--you gotta love these democrats).

Shortly after our victory celebration, the town's commercial rate was increased by 53 %--the hearing notice was about a week prior to Christmas and the hearing was held between Christmas and new years day--we were out of town and missed it--no one showed and they the city said had no choice but to go with the PSC's recommendation ( the Mayor had been named "democrat of the year" a couple years prior and was wired to the state psc). By this time her friend had closed their wash. As a known republican, there was no courtesy call to their biggest customer--us!!

As Earl points out the rate has little to do with costs of treatment but everything to do with how much revenue they would like.

I looked into reclaim a few years ago and gave Dean our numbers--he provided a very professional reply which basically said, our numbers do not support it yet. If we need review reclaim in future, he will be my first choice--an honest man.

PS--what goes around... this past Christmas, the City had the annual parade--The county republican party entered a float and won a cash prize--would like to have been present when she had to sign check to county republican executive committee--in fairness she is running against another democrat (no republican contender) coming up and he is good guy.

Ted

[Tom Thumb]

Washvac,
Do you have any info. on the ultrasonic type sewer meter?
Looked into one type but it was with the impeller, city was not impressed with it.

[washnvac]

I knew that would come up, and ofcourse I do not have the info here at the office. I will be at that location on Tuesday, and will get the info for you. Look for it late Tuesday evening. It has been a few years since we installed it, but I think the only issue for the model I have is that the line must be full. (Not gravity fed) I am on my own force main, so this was not an issue for me. I had to install a pumping station when I built in 2000 because the line was 1000 feet away, and the town would not run it to me. We just installed it on the backside of the pumping station, then mounted the remote read on the station control box. The cost of the unit back in 2003 was about $1800. I "googled" ultrasonic sewer meter trying to find mine, with no luck. But it looks like there is quite a few different models out now.

[Micah Savell]

Last fall a customer of mine was notified by FDEP that he was in non-compliance on his closed closed loop system. This system was in the wash when he purchased it but was problematic from day one in water quality and odor. He removed the reclaim system and installed a membrane system with an additional 1500 gallons of water storage. The results in water quality were amazing and the reduction in water are below. FYI: Although the bills were higher in Nov and December he washed more cars in February. It took a little time to tweak it. Last week he received his new Letter of Compliance and renewed permit.

11/11/08 – 12/10/08 $645
12/11/08 – 01/10/09 $716
01/11/09 – 02/10/09 $459
02/11/09 – 03/10/09 $295

The quality of the water is clear and there is NO odor. Amazing technology.

[rph9168]

Will the city allow you to put a meter on your sewer? Due to evaporation, runoff and carry off you are definitely not putting all of the water you use into the sewer system. The meters are a bit pricey but every operator that I have known that was able to install a sewer meter has benefited from it.

[washnvac]

Tom Thumb: The sewer meter I am using is called an Ultra Mag, model # UM06-02. It is for a 2 inch line rated to 160 gpm. The company that makes it is McCrometer, Inc. Their website is: www.mccrometer.com You can find details on all the latest units, and find a distributor. I got mine from Hughes Supply, which became HD Supply when Home Depot bought it, now my area store is closed as of last October.

[Tom Thumb]

Washvac,
Thanks for the info.
Did you have problems with the local county or city fathers in getting premission to install this unit.
Water dept. here was not very helpful here. (central Fl.)

[washnvac]

I actually did not have a problem. This was because there was already other commercial businesses on a sewer meter. Although, I did request the same at another municipality and they turned it down. They gave me the BS that my rates already calculated in the carryout & evaporation. I am sure they did some scientific survey on this to get the rate. Anyhow, I chose not to make any waves, because that town doesn't give me any grief over other potential issues at the site. These big egos in little government can make life miserable if they so choose, if you know what I mean. So I just try to conserve as best I can. Good luck with it.

[rph9168]

There are some estimates on carry off and evaporation that might suggest to them that not all the water that is used in the wash goes into the sewer.