Something to think about

[pitzerwm]

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/ibrahim100307.html

[phred113]

Read the book, End of Faith by Sam Harris. The answer to all of this is to drop the illusion of religion, gods, and move on to reality and away from mysticism. Christians have the rationality to abandon the inane commands in the Bible, but the Muslims are so primitive that they literally interpret the Koran. The sooner the Christians (Western societies) drop religion and hold these ideas in contempt, the quicker the World can avoid disaster at the hands of Muslims (or any fundamentalists). This is the gist of his book.

[pitzerwm]

http://www.autocareforum.com/denmark.html

[Ben's Car Wash]

You mean like the Romans tried to eliminate the "pig" christians by feeding them to lions, bears and gladiators? Or the Conquestidors, the Spanish Inqusition, the crusades or the Eroupeans settelers to the Americas theating other cultures and "savages" as less than human and needing to be exterminated?

fundementalism of ANY RELIGION IS WHAT IT IS... be that Christian, Hebrew of Muslim. The begining of the bombings in the 1960s in the Middle east began at the King David Hotel by a Radical Jewish group, not Hammas or the PLO (they didn't exist). Whabbism is fairly new... as is this islamic-fundimental threat.

Funny this is... as a kid I always though that American Idians "scalped" the white people... that's how it was portraed on TV and in the movies. But that not what happened. Eroupens offed bounties on Indians and the proof was like a pelt from a beaver... the scalp. In return (Indian have little hair and the hiar is very sacred) they began scalping.

Maybe you should read more history, more lititure and more religious studies before you conclude that Islam is what you said it is. Fact is Islam has a whole chapter (called a SURA) on Christ who the claim (as we do in the new testament) that Christ was born from the Virgin Mary. The speak of John the baptist, Zaccariah and when he heard God in the Temple tell him that he would have a son (John the baptist). The speak of all most all of the same stories that are in both the Torrah & the Bible. If you read ALL THREE BOOKS; the Torrah, the Koran and the Bible you will find so many simularities that you will see less differances. Your being told what to think... to hate. same as in 1937 and dehumanizing people calling them rats & vermin until it was easy to exterminate them.

90,000 will die from flu in the US this year, 700,000+ from heart disease, 20,000 from falls in homes, 72,000 from lung cancer, 36,000 from breast cancer, 14,000 from DUI's 11,000 kids from drownings, 7000 kids from gun shots...... we killed hundreds of thoudsand of people in Iraq alone in this war.... are we make more fundimentalist or less?

[Ben's Car Wash]

BTW,, I disagree that Christians can abondon mystic things and become "rational". The Us has the highest rate of "Christian Identity" in the modern world. Yet we are lossing ground in Science. Globally or test score drop. Recent studies published showed that more people believe in the "unseen" then in fact. I will find that and link it if you don't beleive me. The point is no one is better.... we have to come to know eachother and understand why we are reacting this way. If I recall.... we have a lot of radical Christian here in the US; Eric Roudolph, Ted Kazinksi, Those nuts in Kansas City with the Fags and the military funneral $hit.... There plenty of them here too. And they too are preparing to die for their causes.

[jcedwards]

You make my point with examples of unacceptable, irrational behavior in the name of some 'belief'. All of these are unacceptable, anti-social behavior. There is also the matter of degree. The grave side protesters are not behaving acceptably, yet legally, but there are few of 'them' and there are relatively many of 'us'. There are REALLY a lot of Muslims. When a group of that size decides to behave in a certain way, then they become a force difficult to counter. The theory explains the Catholic's anti-birth control and advocation of more little catholics for centuries.

Well behaving, cooperating groups can multiply and prosper along with the rest of society. It is those that behave counter to social norms that must be called out and corrected or removed (not firing squads or eugenics).

I do not care if you choose to believe in something I know to be fiction and similar references to the same fiction (Bible, Koran, Talmud, Torah,....). Your behavior is civil. As you have correctly pointed out, I have an issue with fundamentalists.

[jcedwards]

Christians in the world seem to have abandoned the strict 'teachings' and tempered them with pragmatic choices on how to live in a civil society. All I ask is that the Muslims do the same or get out.

If we decide that tolerance is what we need, this group will never assimilate. The Irish and Italians were treated horribly, but today they are just part of the group. The cruelty some felt is the natural force of a society needing compliance. You can calm down I am not talking about compliance in the context of China or that sort.

The US is a country founded on reason and natural laws. These have always guided our culture and laws. Irrational, human-hating behavior cannot be allowed as it is truly suicide for everyone. Most of the human-hating, irrational teachings from the Bible/Torah are ignored and the result is a civil society. Instead, the teachings followed by most are the positive, life affirming ones. This is what Muslims need to do, or go somewhere that allows them to kill and control each other.

You can continue to be offended and defend people you do not know, or read this post and think, and understand. I have not advocated killing, sterilizing, or harming Muslims in any way. They should leave if they cannot follow OUR social rules and agree to assimilate in the public square. In their homes they can do as they wish - it is their home after all.

[pitzerwm]

When Doug (Ben's dad) informed me that he condoned the demonstrators at solder's funerals, his credibility and opinions ceased to be of any value.

[rph9168]

I really doubt most of what Doug says but I especially noticed his comment about killing "hundred of thousands" of Iraqi's. Sounds like he has been listening to Rosie O'Donnell and her group. The total number to date is not even in the "hundreds of thousands" and the way the war is going now it is highly unlikely to go much higher. The interesting thing is that when things were hot a heavy over there, the evening news led with war stories. Now there is hardly a mention and many so called newscasts have no war stories.

There are fringe groups in almost every religion that exists that have extremist views. I believe the problem most have with the Muslims in general is that so little is said or done to refute or reject the actions of the terrorists by mainstream Muslims. The other is their extreme intolerance of other religions and their screwy rules of behavior. God forbid that a missionary try to convert a Muslim or someone misuse the name of Mohammed or soil a Koran. I recently read where a professor in the Middle East was ordered to receive 180 lashes for having coffee with a female in public. It doesn't get much crazier than that. Lucky for him he didn't hug or kiss her. God knows what the penalty for that is.

[Ben's Car Wash]

When the F did I EVEN CONDONE THAT? YOU LOST YOU MIND Bill!

[Ben's Car Wash]

First I know many Muslim.... I work side by side with them every day on a professional level.... I watch them SAVE LIVES EVERY DAY. So your wrong there.

Second, this Nation is founded on Religious freedom and liberty to be or practice whatever religion (or no religion) without a "test" or fear, or discrimination (which is what you are suggesting). This IS NOT A NEW CONFLICT, it has been seen well beforwe the US ever existed.... perhaps you heard of Spain, the Basque, the Moor wars, the "black moors".

And as far as RPH "doubts" .... he needs to read. All most Every Nation accepts the death toll in Iraq is well about 400,000 (the lancet 3 years ago reported or 700,000). These were published medical studies... the same studies certified in the past to prove genocide by the US in the Hague against others... only now we doubt it? How convienant.

We are creating more of them. And by suggesting the we "expell" Muslims because your view of them doesn't suit you if even more inflamatory. You forget that some of you poster here on the ACF and many of the Readers are Muslim!

[pitzerwm]

Sorry Doug, but I have the email, that you sent when I accidentally sent to you pictures of the Muslim protest in England, with signs threating to kill any one that objected to them. You sent me a picture of the protesters here and said that they were totally right to protest because of Bush starting the war in Iraq. BUT, if you want to say that isn't what you meant, fine.

Anyone reading the European newspapers can see the problems that they are causing in Europe trying to force people to their way of thinking. Just type Muslim Protest into Google and you will get plenty of evidence that in Europe and the Middle East and Asia SOME of them are a problem.

Sure the ones here, like Catholics that practice birth control, (don't practice their religion to the inth degree) are great American citizens and contribute to the common good. They see that our way of life and liberty is better than the pure dogma that the Mullahs are preaching in other parts of the world. This thread wasn't about them.

IMO most people here could care less what you think about this thread based on your previous posts.

Also, IMO people that want to over throw our way of government should be shown the door. Actually Congress is destroying the Constitution and Bill of Rights quick enough. They don't need any help.

[Ben's Car Wash]

RPH,

I have to ask.... where do you get the Muslims are not tolerant of others religion? What are their screwy rules?

[Ben's Car Wash]

Sorry Doug, but I have the email, that you sent when I accidentally sent to you pictures of the Muslim protest in England, with signs threating to kill any one that objected to them. You sent me a picture of the protesters here and said that they were totally right to protest because of Bush starting the war in Iraq. BUT, if you want to say that isn't what you meant, fine.

Anyone reading the European newspapers can see the problems that they are causing in Europe trying to force people to their way of thinking. Just type Muslim Protest into Google and you will get plenty of evidence that in Europe and the Middle East and Asia SOME of them are a problem.

Sure the ones here, like Catholics that practice birth control, are great American citizens and contribute to the common good. They see that our way of life and liberty is better than the pure dogma that the Mullahs are preaching in other parts of the world. This thread wasn't about them.

IMO most people here could care less what you think about this thread based on your previous posts.

Also, IMO people that want to over throw our way of government should be shown the door. Actually Congress is destroying the Constitution and Bill of Rights quick enough. They don't need any help.

Bill... YOU WERE CIRCULATING HATE MAIL THAT I DID NOT WELCOME.... I'm sick of getting this nonsense! My point was that we have the SAME THING HERE PROTECTED BY FREE SPEECH.... OF WHICH YOU MAKE A LIVING HERE ON THE ACF! Like it or not... agree with it or not... it is legal, protected free speech... do I agree with it... hell no. Did you see me there with a SIGN... Hell No... did you see me send their Church a check.... F NO! They're WACK JOBS! But it is legal. My point to you was that you protest that which you do not pretend to protest by a Christian group.... WHY? Because you HATE THE MUSLIMS? Let's be fair.

You got burned before when you posted awlful things about muslims and I defended them and a reader here on ACF got highly offended who was Islamic (you altered the thread afterwards). This is HATE SPEECH which is NOT CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARENTEED nor protected and is VERY dangerous.... it goes to bad places for everyone.

[Ben's Car Wash]

1937 again.... I never though I'd see it in the US.

[pitzerwm]

I don't hate anyone, until they start demanding that I conform to their beliefs. I don't hate them then, I just deal with it. Just the same if someone broke into my house, I'd assume that they weren't the Jehovah witnesses trying to convert me. Hate mail?? pictures of a public demonstration that showed their point of view? I guess pictures of people burning the flag if forwarded would be hate mail. I have nothing personally against anyone that believes whatever they believe, until they decide that I have to believe it too. The last time that you were talking about was a stupid anti-Muslim joke, which I didn't think about very well before posting, I was wrong and said so, this posts is a British man's opinion about what's going on in England, and IMO if we allow the radical people that they have allowed into England, into the US, we will have the same problems. Just like the gangs that we have now in the cities.

You might have noticed that Obama distanced himself from Farrakhan because of his radical violent views.

[Ben's Car Wash]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


Now can some one tell me the name of the sword that the Marines wear? Why do they wear it? Who gave it to them? Why was it Rumored that Obama was sworn in on a Koran (clue... it was Thomas Jefferson's)... and who gave it to Thomas Jefferson?

Friend or Foe? How many wars have we fought to defend Muslims (clue...almost EVERY ONE). Maybe the Marine should drop thier swords.... it's a Muslim symbol a part of their uniform & heritage!

[Ben's Car Wash]

try to google "the wreck of the Philadelphia", "O'Bannon" "the barbary priates". More history... less hate!

[Ben's Car Wash]

I don't hate anyone, until they start demanding that I conform to their beliefs. I don't hate them then, I just deal with it. Just the same if someone broke into my house, I'd assume that they weren't the Jehovah witnesses trying to convert me. Hate mail?? pictures of a public demonstration that showed their point of view? I guess pictures of people burning the flag if forwarded would be hate mail. I have nothing personally against anyone that believes whatever they believe, until they decide that I have to believe it too. The last time that you were talking about was a stupid anti-Muslim joke, which I didn't think about very well before posting, I was wrong and said so, this posts is a British man's opinion about what's going on in England, and IMO if we allow the radical people that they have allowed into England, into the US, we will have the same problems. Just like the gangs that we have now in the cities.

You might have noticed that Obama distanced himself from Farrakhan because of his radical violent views.


But Bill... it's that what the poster is saying here to Muslims..... CONFORM TO MY BELIEFS OR LEAVE THE US? Yes I know what your point was... I took offense to it... as did other who privately E-mail me (often) because they are affraid of going public here.... unlike me the FOOL who steps into a good debate because I love to debate everything!

When we stop having dialgue... we have a big problem. I get 3-5 stupid E-mails every day about "OBAMA is MUSLIM TERRORIST", "Hillary took millions from ERON", "Coke make boy stomach explode"... BS people make $hit up to scare others without knowing FACTS.

Have you ever read the KORAN? Have you ever studied Theology deeply enough to see how Abramic faiths are simular? If not, why? Was it Neche that said to "know your enemy"?

[Ben's Car Wash]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/barbary.htm

In 1805 Marines stormed the Barbary pirates' harbor fortress stronghold of Derna (Tripoli), commemorated in the Marine Corp Hymn invocation "To the Shores of Tripoli." First Lieutenant O'Bannon is remembered for heroism in the battle for Derna. O'Bannon's Marines were the first U.S. forces to hoist the flag over territory in the Old World. The "Mameluke" sword, carried by Marines officers today, was presented to O'Bannon in 1805.


Our finest soldiers, the US MARINES wear (used) an ISLAMIC SYMBOL given to them by an ARAB PRINCE... the oldest weapon in the US ARSENAL! FACT. Thomas Jefferson recieved his personal copy of the Koran for this Prince in appreciation for the US support to restore him (and overthrow his brother the Sulton) in Tripoli. Keith ..... damit.... whats his name... from Minnisota... representative oh well... was sworn in on Jeffersons Koran (Keith Ellison).

"When I'm officially sworn in, I will do it the same exact way as every other Congressperson-elect who was sworn in," explains the Representative from Minneapolis. "We will all stand up and in unison lift our hand and swear to uphold that Constitution, and then later, in a private ceremony, of course I'll put my hand on a book that is the basis of my faith, which is Islam, and I think that this is a beauty--this is a wonderful thing for our country because Jewish members will put their hands on the Torah. Mormon members will put their hand on the Book of Mormon. Catholic members will put their hand on the book of their choice--and members that don't want to put their hand on any book are also fully free to do that. That's the American way.... I think the diversity of our country is a great strength. It's a good thing that we have people from all faiths and all cultures to come here."



http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=153689

[jcedwards]

I'm glad all seem to agree.

Muslim Cabbies (in Mpls) will not carry fares from the airport if they have alcohol in their bags. This is the type of behavior I am talking about. They must be removed from the position or moderate their zealotry.

I will state again, since Doug has seen fit in his hysterics to move away from civil discourse, yet again.

Everyone that came here had to bend, adapt to our ways or they suffered and/or left. America has a long history of intolerance of difference - it's history, no need to judge. The natural societal force for commonality creates this intolerance.

Doug, you seem to be "offended waiting to happen" based upon your righteous indignation on behalf of every potentially oppressed group that has ever existed.

In fact, your behavior illustrates my point beautifully. I dare say you disagree with the beliefs of many on this Forum. You have the right to express your opinion. We (Bill) have the right not to listen, and in the extreme, to have you removed for your behavior in our 'society' on the ACF. You see your behavior may soon be deemed "anti-social" by our standards and require your removal to maintain the civility we need to function as a clearinghouse for CW related information.

[jcedwards]

I am not advocating your removal, but I use this hypothetical to make the point. You would have the choice to 'behave' or leave (or be removed).

This does not seem like too much to ask - people behave or leave. People actively hating the USA should leave. You can disagrees, it is your right. It changes when the behavior crosses the line to action beyond 1st Amendment protection, namely the harm or perceived harm of others.

So my recommendation is to actively try to fit in the society your in. That goes for the Muslims, too.

[Ben's Car Wash]

Dude, Your "out there"!

I don't have to conform to injustices. Did Rosa Parks "Conform"? Did abolishist give up on the injustice of Salery because others owned slaves even though the Constitution only counted Black as 5/8ths of a man?

I follow the rules here on ACF. This is the I'd like to say area. Your insighting and elivating bigotry here were other "lurkers" who read this forum are Muslim and find it offensive. I personally find it offensive and will speak out about it and you can not stop me when you begin to post about it! You post about it... I WILL RESPOND TOO YOU... I PROMISE.

[Ben's Car Wash]

JC.... what is "our way"? Can you define it? What is "American Culture"? What you say you fear is opposite of mine. You fear the immagreation of large numbers of Muslims that will dominate of interfere with your way (or percieved way of American values). By saying we must restrict religion (a theocratic State) you will create that which you distaine by shear numbers. Islam is that fastest growing Religion in the World! Yes, as Bill pointed out, Europe has problems... Europe has had problem for 1200 years with this! How many year until this turns in the US? 100? 125? 200? When will the population of Muslims become greater than that of Christians in the US? What will gurantee our generations the right to practice "faith" unrestricted by by the majority rules?

Religious freedom and the protection of it, the Constitutional protection of "no religious test", the strict separtion of Church and State and the defence of one another RIGHT TO BELIEVE IN A GOD OF YOUR OWN is all of our duties... even if you can not understand this.... this is how I personally feel... to my deepest core of my being! I guess that is too deep for you to understand?

Again, my family came here in the mid 1600's and bought land from William Penn. I have no writtings from them, but as my forefathers I can imagine they came here to escape the Kings of England and Tyranny of a Head of both Church and State. Penn was one of the eairly American Utopian authors (imprissoned in England twice by the King) who saw religion free of government not government telling us who can come and stay here! As England expelled at that time Puritian Christians, Prodistants and Catholics.

If you take this view that you are espousing to believe... you are moving far away from the principle our our Nation... even at the threat of harm from radicals be they Muslim or Christian! My point is... you do not fear death from drunk drivers, cancer, heart disease or those people who risk your life while practicing bad behaviors that cost society billions of dollars. Why Muslims? Why fear?

[Ben's Car Wash]

Read the book, End of Faith by Sam Harris. The answer to all of this is to drop the illusion of religion, gods, and move on to reality and away from mysticism. Christians have the rationality to abandon the inane commands in the Bible, but the Muslims are so primitive that they literally interpret the Koran. The sooner the Christians (Western societies) drop religion and hold these ideas in contempt, the quicker the World can avoid disaster at the hands of Muslims (or any fundamentalists). This is the gist of his book.

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0393327655/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt/105-8134752-9410057?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Midway thru makes my point in the reviews. While ALL organize religion have culpability for killing in the name of God (and yes now radical Islam is a problem), the solution IS NOT to change how the US TREATS RELIGION. phred recognizes this... to a great extent. We all hold personal beliefs. But forcing the US into confrontation over religion which we have fought along side with (Kosovo, Algeria, Irag, Afganistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, North Africa, Tripoli) is not productive.

I'm done.... moving on now. Good bye. Read history and get back to me next year, then read the Bible.... mostly Leviticus and deuteromedy (the Pentatuk) to see which laws we Christian should uphold but don't.... then get back with me about getting in a cab with booze!

[pitzerwm]

Doug, this is what we all are trying to point out to you.

I don't have to conform to injustices. Did Rosa Parks "Conform"? Did abolishist give up on the injustice of Salery because others owned slaves even though the Constitution only counted Black as 5/8ths of a man?

This is your quote, this thread has nothing to do with someone being oppressed no one is/has made Muslims slaves or 2nd class citizens. We are objecting to them using violence to make us conform to their beliefs.

You either enjoy stirring the pot, or are in dire need of some attention. You totally attack the thread with bogus or irrelevant information accuse people of saying things that they didn't say. Religious freedom has nothing to do with forcing your religion on the people around you. You only have to look at the countries that are controlled by the Muslim religion to see what religious freedom isn't.

Yes, up to a point we will put up with your and Pat Crowe's totally bogus diatribes, until you have absolutely no credibility on any subject. Which I think is pretty much now.

Here is something that you might think about for a minute. You had a childhood handicap which warped you to some degree, the deal is that so did I, probably not as physically traumatic as yours but never the less it warped me. Eventually, I realized that and am usually able to control the behavior that the "handicap" created. When absolutely no one agrees with you, you have to think, "Man, I am either way ahead of my time, or I'm full of crap"

"Let us not look back in anger or forward in fear, but around in awareness."
James Thurber

[jcedwards]

I handed you a shovel and you could not help but dig your own conversational grave. This is not even fair because I think you are actually helpless to control your rage. I am taking advantage of a helpless individual, and for this I am sorry.

[Ben's Car Wash]

Far from it!

You can't say they need to conform their religious beliefs here in the US because you don't agree with it! If you do that... you infringe on their civil liberties. What is it that you don't get about that. Bill.... he's not talking about Islam in OTHER NATIONS and their lack of religious freedoms but saying they shouldn't express it HERE IN THE US! No one is saying to you to wear a Burka?

And when you CAN't make your point to win an argument... YOU PERSONALLY ATTACK ME WITH MY HANDICAP! Your a moron! Grow the **** up.

God help us.

[Micah Savell]

Far from it!

You can't say they need to conform their religious beliefs here in the US because you don't agree with it! If you do that... you infringe on their civil liberties. What is it that you don't get about that. Bill.... he's not talking about Islam in OTHER NATIONS and their lack of religious freedoms but saying they shouldn't express it HERE IN THE US! No one is saying to you to wear a Burka?

And when you CAN't make your point to win an argument... YOU PERSONALLY ATTACK ME WITH MY HANDICAP! Your a moron! Grow the **** up.

God help us.

Doug, I am sorry I haven't been following the link and DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR HANDICAP. Are you mentally challenged?

[phred113]

Geez, this has become quite the thread. I was trying to give a book plug and it seems to have degenerated into a 'Muslims do not try to fit in, so they should leave' screed. Doug, bravo for sticking up for the oppressed wherever they may be. I think you should calm down and re-read some of the posts, however. You seem to have missed the points the others are making. It's hard when your in the middle of a rant, but it may be helpful to take a deep breath and think about what is being said. Your emotions see to be getting the best of you.

BTW, I think JC is doing this just to get you kicked off the Forum and you are helping him. If you calm down and re-read, you can probably see that he baited you with an obviously inflammatory statement and you bit hard as most here could predict you would. He is playing you for a fool, IMO. Just be careful.....:)

[Ben's Car Wash]

phred,

I did re-read them... came to the same conclussion that the statements are saying the Muslims are (parapharsing the gist of it) overwhelmingly bad and not socialy conforming to the "Christian standards" that many here view as "American" because they haven't abondoned the old myths of thier religions like the Hebrews or Christians did. Therefore they should be expelled. A view held in 1932-1937 Germany by Christians of Jews (modern Christians).

That's scarry.

But thanks for your warning and insight. The Book you plugged made that point from the reviews I've read. You might ask why I'm so defensive over this because I have very close friends who are Muslims who I have dinned with (and I drank beer in their presence). They treated me very well and continue to (sent my wife and I gifts for the bith of our kids, did free medical care for family members and complete strangers...no questions asked, bought homes for people!). My son goes to school with many Muslim kids.... one girl calls him EVERY NIGHT (in violation of her faith I might add). So yes, I am touchy about this leading to a situation like the PIANIST or SWING BOYS where I have to define who my friends are by their faith because of "populist myths" over hysteria like JC's.

JC I bet never knew that the US Marines wore the Simatar sword? He's affraid to answer my questions.... hits too close to home.

[jcedwards]

Now you are getting it. The young lady that calls your son and the fine Muslims that you dine with are examples of what I am talking about. They have chosen to come off the extremes of their faith and adapt to the society they are in. Now, do you understand?

No one is telling them it is unacceptable to forbid you from having a beer in their home, but they could because it is their right (home). If they came into the public square (restaurant) and forbid you from doing this, that would be wrong. So, if you are done reading into my posts what others simply do not read, then maybe you can join in and protect our society from tyranny of the minority.

One more time, I have never focused my argument on Muslims simply because they are Muslims. I have been quite clear about behavior as the issue, not religion or heritage. YOU have injected all the other stuff to justify your rage and rants. Please re-read and find where I focus on anything besides behavior. Taking a sentence out of context would be wrong.

If I told you that Christians praying in their homes is offensive to me, a non-Christian, and you must stop, you would tell me to go pound sand because this is not my right to tell you what to do in your home. You would be right and should defend this with everything you have. It is a completely different argument if you are next to me praying on the bus, however.

[pitzerwm]

Doug, as usual you are mis-reading or just refusing to acknowledge reality. The thread and posts have nothing to do with trying to make Muslims or anyone conform to US. It is about them wanting us/Europe to conform to their way of thinking. If you watched some of the European news you would be aware of the problems that they are having with the Muslim population. I had read somewhere that the London cops had areas of London that they were refusing to go into without the military as back up. I asked my English partner about it and he confirmed that the Muslims have an area in London that no one will go there because it is totally not safe for non-Muslims. So say what you want, this whole thread had nothing to do with forcing Muslims to conform to anything. We are uneasy about them trying to make us conform to their way of beliefs. You don't like that, who cares?

[jcedwards]

Of course, then there is this......http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120450617910806563.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries

A little off topic, but still really on topic.

[pitzerwm]

This is a paraphrasing of what PM John Howard made in a speech: When I was in AU a couple of years ago, on their TV I saw radical Muslims with machine guns (no guns are legal in AU) threating to kill all Australians if they didn't start conforming to their religion. I saw this with my own eyes.

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are
offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'
'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.'
'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.' 'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.''If you aren't happy here then L! EAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Now, if you would like to read more about it in Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/australia.asp

Doug, to be specific, you obviously know some Muslims who are not radical and enjoy the freedoms and benefits of living in the US. Have the live and let live ideas that most of us have. IMO almost all people individually are just fine, its when they are in groups and subjected to group/peer pressure or influences that can lead to the problems.

[Ben's Car Wash]

You make my point with examples of unacceptable, irrational behavior in the name of some 'belief'. All of these are unacceptable, anti-social behavior. There is also the matter of degree. The grave side protesters are not behaving acceptably, yet legally, but there are few of 'them' and there are relatively many of 'us'. There are REALLY a lot of Muslims. When a group of that size decides to behave in a certain way, then they become a force difficult to counter. The theory explains the Catholic's anti-birth control and advocation of more little catholics for centuries.

Well behaving, cooperating groups can multiply and prosper along with the rest of society. It is those that behave counter to social norms that must be called out and corrected or removed (not firing squads or eugenics).

I do not care if you choose to believe in something I know to be fiction and similar references to the same fiction (Bible, Koran, Talmud, Torah,....). Your behavior is civil. As you have correctly pointed out, I have an issue with fundamentalists.

When you state "there are REALLY a lot of Muslims", you are casting a net stating that they are all bad or behaving as the example of the protestors in the previous sentance. You futher say "that when a group of that size" saying that the entire group is behaving that way.

You are stating that you have issue with Muslims... fine just state that. I'd rather you be an honest bigot or an atheist in general. But please understand that what you THINK is the "NORM" is far from it because you have little contact with Muslims. Just like not all Christian handle snakes and speak in tongues! Is there a justifable threat to life? Sure to some extent (But if your an Abortion provider in the US a Christian group has you name and address and a bullet with you name on it too). But still Radicals are in every religion (which was the point of the book) but you specifically took huge issue (as did Bill) with Muslims. And that was VERY SLANTED.

Let me look at your next post.

[pitzerwm]

Doug, you were totally right, JC did call Muslims an improper name, I missed it and have deleted it, I also needed to delete your response, because you quoted him. He was wrong, I was wrong to miss it. Apparently, he has had some unpleasant dealing with some Muslims here and expressed his anger, it was too much.

That being said, my original posts and responses that around the world there are radical Muslims that want to convert non believers and resort to violence to do it, is factual and the European countries are starting to have big problems and are beginning to attempt to deal with it. To my knowledge we aren't experiencing much of this yet, but in a few years Muslims will constitute 40% of the voters in Europe and their decisions will effect us.

[Ben's Car Wash]

Christians in the world seem to have abandoned the strict 'teachings' and tempered them with pragmatic choices on how to live in a civil society. All I ask is that the Muslims do the same or get out.

If we decide that tolerance is what we need, this group will never assimilate. The Irish and Italians were treated horribly, but today they are just part of the group. The cruelty some felt is the natural force of a society needing compliance. You can calm down I am not talking about compliance in the context of China or that sort.

The US is a country founded on reason and natural laws. These have always guided our culture and laws. Irrational, human-hating behavior cannot be allowed as it is truly suicide for everyone. Most of the human-hating, irrational teachings from the Bible/Torah are ignored and the result is a civil society. Instead, the teachings followed by most are the positive, life affirming ones. This is what Muslims need to do, or go somewhere that allows them to kill and control each other.

You can continue to be offended and defend people you do not know, or read this post and think, and understand. I have not advocated killing, sterilizing, or harming Muslims in any way. They should leave if they cannot follow OUR social rules and agree to assimilate in the public square. In their homes they can do as they wish - it is their home after all.

Again here you stated that "Christians abondoned" strict teachings. Yet I would remind you about Waco and David Koresh or Jim Jones, or the Hail Bob suicide group. But your point about Biblical teachings as a whole in Christianity and Jeudiasm is true. But that has some cost and some explanations that you either do not understand or have not explained. Muslims have for the most part been "cultrually isolated" until 1940's and the injection of huge capital from oil revenues and recent events have ppush our cultures and religions into a confrontation. While Anglos and Europeans have had centurys to adjust, Muslims and Islam have only had decades. Same with China and Eastern medican and culture. So the "dynamics" are much deeper than what you are making it out to be. On top of that area of the World has only view Western Culture as either "imperial or colonial" because of the past armies of England, France, Dutch and others.... why should the view the history of the US as any different?

Again JC, I defend FRIENDS, people I know and love. A muslim saved my mother-in-law (I happen to like my mother-in-law) when she was having a heart attack. A muslim sent my me wife the most beautiful gift basket on the birth of my girls (twice). A Muslim did charity, gratis medical care for my father. I know more about them then you do. Does that mean that somewhere someone want to hurt me specifically , no.... the hit the symbol of the US... yes. But too the British burned down Washington in 1814, yet I'm still an Anglican!

[Ben's Car Wash]

Bill,

Thank you.... I'm really not trying to stir up trouble or defend horrible crimes of horrible people. NO ONE CAN DEFEND THE ACT OF TERROR, Jew, Christian or Muslim. Yesterday was horrible in Gaza were many kids died over DIRT!

Even Muslims love their kids and want a better life. Still, I see the US moving very close in a propaganda state towards FEAR. Last summer I spent 2 full days in the Holecaust Museum in DC with my kids. To see how it happend in a land where 90% of Germans were "christians" to kill over 6 million people because of fear, or religion. And I see subtle signs everywhere that it can happen again, here.... yes, I get defensive.

[pitzerwm]

Doug, I'll retract some of the things I said to you as you were reacting to JC's over the top words, which I had missed. I have nothing against Muslims or anyone unless they are a threat to me or my friends. I can see that when people are willing to blow themselves up to harm us or others, there is something wrong. I think that it is safe to say that the 9-11 people were Muslims. Of course, there is no shortage of ugly history in the name of a religion. To clear up one statement that you had made about we have killed thousands in Iraq, I think that you will find that "they" have killed each other in the thousands. We are just in the middle wishing that we knew whose side to take.

Personally, since most of the 9-11 people were from Saudi Arabia and there is plenty of evidence that they are stabbing us in the back, I think that we should have invaded Saudi Arabia, it would have been a lot easier to "deport" all of them and take over the oil. No one is going to hate us any more than they do now.

[jcedwards]

Doug, you are getting much closer to understanding, but you just cannot allow yourself to admit it. You are citing how the USA must understand and adapt, yet do not extend the same requirement to Muslims (or others). In all your high-mindedness, you appear completely unwilling to understand other's points, but instead opt for confrontation and disagreement. This, again, makes my point about willingness to adapt. In this small way, you are behaving like the Muslims I cite (have issue with). BTW, this thread was started in the context of Muslims, not any other group.

To argue against points by citing the minority or rare exception does not move understanding along. All it does is stop it. I would hope you have the intellectual maturity to understand this. Unless we are talking about Bob and Sue, and we both know them, we must speak in generalities that have exceptions. In reality, generalities have exceptions and most adults understand this in conversation. Only children believe citing a rare example will make their point, but adults understand this and move on.

We have a culture with acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior. Without going to the extreme examples, I have chosen more subtle and you have gone nuclear in your responses. Get some help with your anger and rage because it is hard to believe this is the only 'forum' that you behave this way.

Is it acceptable for a grocery store employee to refuse to scan or touch (do their job) the pork chop I am trying to purchase? I say no. They can have their Muslim or Jewish beliefs, but they must do their job without fail. If the real possibility of a conflict exists, then avoid that job. This is what I am talking about. This was subtle and to the point. Feel free to counter with concentration camps, as usual.

[Waxman]

I'm tired of this thread. Seems pretty pointless to me. Couldn't you guys have said all you needed to say in maybe 2 posts each? Please spare us. I know this is the "anything goes" section, but gimme a break!

There used to be some nut on here who posted poetry. Maybe you could try that for a change. Who knows, maybe you'd feel better if you did...

[Ben's Car Wash]

Doug, you are getting much closer to understanding, but you just cannot allow yourself to admit it. You are citing how the USA must understand and adapt, yet do not extend the same requirement to Muslims (or others). In all your high-mindedness, you appear completely unwilling to understand other's points, but instead opt for confrontation and disagreement. This, again, makes my point about willingness to adapt. In this small way, you are behaving like the Muslims I cite (have issue with). BTW, this thread was started in the context of Muslims, not any other group.

To argue against points by citing the minority or rare exception does not move understanding along. All it does is stop it. I would hope you have the intellectual maturity to understand this. Unless we are talking about Bob and Sue, and we both know them, we must speak in generalities that have exceptions. In reality, generalities have exceptions and most adults understand this in conversation. Only children believe citing a rare example will make their point, but adults understand this and move on.

We have a culture with acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior. Without going to the extreme examples, I have chosen more subtle and you have gone nuclear in your responses. Get some help with your anger and rage because it is hard to believe this is the only 'forum' that you behave this way.

Is it acceptable for a grocery store employee to refuse to scan or touch (do their job) the pork chop I am trying to purchase? I say no. They can have their Muslim or Jewish beliefs, but they must do their job without fail. If the real possibility of a conflict exists, then avoid that job. This is what I am talking about. This was subtle and to the point. Feel free to counter with concentration camps, as usual.

see below for responce:

[Ben's Car Wash]

1. I am not citing how "the US must adapt". You are saying that you don't like Muslims. The US was formed on the grounds of religious freedoms.... even if that means not touching PORK! Dude what don't you get? Seventh day Adventist don't eat pork either! Amish ride in horse & Buggies, Johovah witness won't get blood tranfusions.... all don't fit nicely in that BOX THAT YOU PAINT! It's their religious belief PROTECTED BY THE CONSTITUTION... if you don't like that they won't touch your pork chop.... shop somewhere else!

2. I have no problem adapting! I'm I forcing any of my religion on you? Have I resticted your belief in any way by saying you can't worship your God... or no GOD? To the contray.... I'm protecting your belief WITH MY ARGUMENT. The Constitution is that garentee that you can believe in any way you want... you just can't restict some one else! As long as they are not harming you (not toughing your pork chop is not harm). Yet I know nurses who refused to care for Aids patient because of "religious beliefs", gays, abortion patient, Pharmacits who wrefuse to fill birth control pills of RU486.. the morning after pill.... so it's every where DUDE... not just your PORK CHOP! Sorry but I miss your anger that you 17 year old couldn't get her birth control pill filled at Walgreens because of the Pharmicist techs religious views!

3. You fail to have the intellectual capability to "move on" or understand that the US is a melting pot. My experance is with many Muslims in personal and every day relationships... you seem to have only had a "run in" which HARDLY MAKES YOU AN AUTHORITY on their culture!

Feel free to elevate it more. You ignorage shows.

PS... a lot of Muslims read the ACF..... I hope you feel embarrased by you "pig headedness"... no pun intended!

You seem hell bent on provoking me.... and seeing that Bill deleted you astonding insult and my pointing it out... I wonder... will you respond? What ever Dude..... you got the problem...not me. Salem ali akbar (peace be upon you in Arabic) BTW... in the Bible Melchiledek the Prince of Salem appears twice... once to Abraham... and again to Christ. Interesting FACT. Just thought you should know that the word Salem.... and the "Prince of Peace" in a Hebrew, Christian and Muslim symbol, greeting and word. I studied theology, my mother has a degree in it. Sholaom!

[Ben's Car Wash]

Dave..... I respect you but this "arguement" has it's place as I stand up for friends.

And I made a mistake... Melkelizdeck was the "King of Salam".... however there never was such a place which is historically significant.

[phred113]

I think you should let it go. You may have made JC's point. He has responded to a request from the community to let it go, and you seem to be unwilling to stop your rant. Just calm down, he got you. Just let it go.

[Ben's Car Wash]

Well.... I see that RPH's post was deleted.... too bad. I watched the VIDEO and AGREED 100% with this man's view! did you hear that? Again, as I said (over and over again) it's not Islam or the US's problem... it's Whabbism (born from Saudi Arabia) and funded by the Royal Family (supported by our addiction to oil) and made worse by our presence in that area of the World. All point that this man made in the video. This is a problem not with Islam but with power hungry mullahs and rulers encouraging people to blow themselves up for GOD.

So I won't say anymore because it's been calm. What ever happened to Soloman Rushde? Is he still in hiding? I read the Satanic verses twenty years ago.

[pitzerwm]

Doug, it was deleted because it is already posted here, but since you missed it the first time, I'll replace it. Thanks RPH

http://www.dotsub.com/films/moredemands/index.php?autostart=true&language_setting=en_1618